Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

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GWD
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Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:51 pm

Hy all!
I had done some lower control arm (b.ball joint,bushes) work on my T/A.
I also done some rough toe adjustment on it to make the handling better till I going back to work.
We have got wheel alignment equipment (optical one) in the garage, so I could do some fine adjustment.
I've got the setting datas from my repair manual,but I would like to make sure I've got the right one. Because several months ago I adjusted it as my manual said,but
the drive did not feel right. It was worse than the previous (rough) adjustment. This thime I wanna make it right. That's why:
-I would be pleased if any of you could tell me what are the right settings for toe and camber.
Thank you!
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SUPERCHARGEDGTA

Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by SUPERCHARGEDGTA » Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:59 pm

will look it up tommorow

SUPERCHARGEDGTA

Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by SUPERCHARGEDGTA » Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:01 pm

track (toe) is 0.00 +/- 0.10 degrees

camber is 0.30 +/- 0.50
caster is 4.70 +/- 0.50

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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:45 pm

Thank you John!
Mine is slightly different:
Image

So I think would better to use your datas, and let's see how it's like. I'll give you feedback tomorrow.
Thanks a lot !
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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Wed Jan 02, 2013 8:53 pm

Hy!

I have done my wheel alignment!
When I set the toe to 0' deg then the outer tire is "jumped" or r"rubbed" on the asphalt ,during a sharp turn.
So I thougt something wrong with the "toeing out in turn" position,that's why I checked the camber as well.
It was miles out. That is why the handling was rubbish with the proper toe setting and it was better with a 5'deg. toeing out setting.

Finally,I adjusted the camber to 0,15 deg (which is in between John's data and my manual's data, however it is still in range).
Then I turn the toe back to 0' deg as both data said.
Drives like a dream!
Also I can feel that the car is "rolling" free, easily then before.
:driving:
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thirdgen

Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by thirdgen » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:36 pm

thats a bit techi for me if it goes straight when i let go of the wheel i am happy

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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Wed Jan 02, 2013 9:44 pm

It was straigth all the time! Belive me!
But every time when I parked it down at the Tesco's carpark I did feel sorry for the suspension parts.
I guess my fuel economy going to be better as well.
Everyone said that around me: "that is normal"...."these american vehicles are straight cars"..."not for curve".
Theye were wrong... :dance:
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SUPERCHARGEDGTA

Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by SUPERCHARGEDGTA » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:19 pm

cool, glad you got it sorted :thumb:
properly set up the corner very respectably

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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:18 pm

Hy Fellas!

I know I'm a rare visitor on this forum, because I spend most of my time in my garage.
I'm just coming to ask usually,
but this time I came to share some technical utility what I figured out.

The issue is: hopping wheels when the steering is fully locked...
Even though I have got many helps (special thanks to SUPERCHARGEDGTA,he's always try to help us),
also I have got the wheel geometry very perfect ,I still had that hopping wheels problem ,
during the sharp turn. After that I done the proper camber,castor,toe alignment that symptom went just noticeable.
But it was still there.
After many try of different settings I found something...

I was sure about that: wheels are haven't got the right position on "Toe out on turns".
Which is the job of "steering trapeze".
With a settings of big "toeing out" ,the problem always gone ,but straight drive was terrible.
With a right settings: straight perfect, but " toe out on turns" gone bad.
I had that feeling,I haven't got a "steering trapeze" there,just a "rectangle".
So I was thinking about how could I increase the distance between idler arm and steering box,or
decrease it on center link when I found the IDLER ARM IS ADJUSTABLE !!!!!
Just in time,because I seriously started to thinking about to chop my centre-link shorter,
or make it adjustable.... :D

So the idler arm is movable on a slope-track. That is how the distance is adjustable between arm
and steering box,thereby the "steering-trapeze".
Well,I have my idler arm fully up,also toe,camber set back to normal...and however...straight handling is perfect,
and sharp turns too.
It was a long procedure to find ...but the solution is so simple and obvious!

I hope it's gonna help for someone.



Illustration:
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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by Newcastle knight » Sun May 12, 2013 9:19 pm

Handy stuff this, although i dont really understand most of it, lol. I think my alignment is all out of whack. Plus the tie rod end on my passenger side was worn out. So today ive replaced the lot, centre link, track road ends and a new idler arm too

Image

All i done was measure the old ones to give me a starting point and adjusted the new ones to that. I took it for a quick spin but its just the same, although i wasnt expecting it to be different with the same setting.

I get that 'wheel hopping' when turning the car around near or on full lock, you can hear them scrubbing into the road. And im still getting that creaking when going in reverse from the front passenger side which i still have no idea the cause of.

Anyway, just for aligning the wheels straight, ive seen some basic methods on youtube like putting string around the tyres and adjusting them until its pressing against the sidewalls front and back, or using two tape measures and a long ruler to get them lined up. I will be honest im not sure what the + - and degrees are or how to do it that way ?

Im wondering about the ilder arm adjustment GWD mentioned though, how does that work ? thats just bolted with 2 bolts, can it be slid up and down with the bolts loosened for more adjustment or something ?

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Newcastle knight
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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by Newcastle knight » Mon May 13, 2013 5:01 pm

One more thing, would it be sensible to set both wheels to Zero toe in/out and adjust from there, cant be too bad if they are both pointing straight forward can it ?

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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Tue May 14, 2013 6:12 pm

I sent pm to you,
If anyone else interest about how to do FULL!! wheel alingment at home then I'm able to share,but it's gonna be long,so I don't want people get bored.
That sting or measure tape not gonna sort it neither.
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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Tue May 14, 2013 6:37 pm

"Im wondering about the ilder arm adjustment GWD mentioned though, how does that work ? thats just bolted with 2 bolts, can it be slid up and down with the bolts loosened for more adjustment or something ?"

I've hadn't got too many 3rd gen (this is the first one :) ) So I can't claim all the same, but is definitely adjustable on mine and on some others too.
It must move up and down when you got those 2 bolts loose.
I recon your oval holes (where those 2 bolts goin through) are just circle,because some dirt built up.
Should be adjustable.
A little bit hard to see ,but not impossible.

read this:
http://www.grahamhathawayracing.com/htm ... align.html

will understand.
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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by Newcastle knight » Tue May 14, 2013 9:36 pm

Thanks mate ! ive got your PM. well i adjusted a bit more last night and its better, my steering wheel is straight again, i still got the wheel scrubbing when turning around a bit but its not as bad as it was on sunday.

Im taking it to a garage on thursday to have it done properly, so i will let you know how it is after its been there.

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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by Newcastle knight » Fri May 17, 2013 7:45 pm

success ! took it to my dads mates place yesterday, hes old school which i like, my front passenger side wasnt too far out but when we put it on the drivers side it went off the gauge :d'oh: so he set it back to zero and then after a few more tweeks it felt really good, the tyres dont dig into the road when im turning anymore and most importantly, we got rid of that horrible creaking noise my car has had for a while.

He had the car up in the air to check all the bolts were tight on the suspension so i asked him to check the K member bolts while he was under there, and what do you know, the passenger side ones were all loose, one of them was nearly falling out, you could turn it with your fingers :-o so he tightened everything up and when i backed it out of the garage and turned....silence, :dance: oh yeah, im happy !

I just need to change that transmission mount to hopefully get rid of the clunk when shifting from park to drive, or reverse....or when i put the hammer down ! and then i should have a relativley knock and rattle free car, in theory.

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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by Davy J » Fri May 17, 2013 8:14 pm

A good result. :thumb:
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SUPERCHARGEDGTA

Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by SUPERCHARGEDGTA » Fri May 17, 2013 8:17 pm

:thumb:

BRYDENGTA

Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by BRYDENGTA » Fri May 17, 2013 8:39 pm

8-)

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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Sat May 18, 2013 8:51 am

Old's cool - Old school
:thumb:
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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by Newcastle knight » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:48 pm

GWD wrote:Hy!
Finally,I adjusted the camber to 0,15 deg (which is in between John's data and my manual's data, however it is still in range).
Then I turn the toe back to 0' deg as both data said.
Drives like a dream!
Also I can feel that the car is "rolling" free, easily then before.
:driving:
So thats 0.15 camber yeah ? need to get mine done. Never had it checked before to be honest, i had the tracking done and thats set to zero but he couldnt adjust the camber.

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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:11 pm

Hi mate.
The camber defines the toe. First you have to have the camber right,then set the toe.
(actually caster-camber then toe)
The camber adjustment pulls the toe out of position,so need re-adjust the toe.

The reason why the camber relates to the toe is the following;
-Imagine that you have a tyre and you are going to roll it. The tyre is straight up,you give it a push straight ahead then it rolls away straight.
-Then if you hold that tyre in a slight angle (lets say leaning to the left slightly) and then give a shove straight ahead...it will roll to the left on a curve.
That was the camber.You need camber for stability reasons,dont forget the car has 4 wheels.
-But if you have your tyre in a slight angle to the left and you give a shove and try to steer it to the right slightly during the roll ,then it'll go straight ;
that is toe.

If you try this ,I mean actually roll a tyre, or any thing like that (toy car's wheel, circular candy box...etc) you will experience it and understand it straight away.

So its important this camber thing... :)

that was the theory, now the practice:
I suppose you know that our cars have adjustable strut top. There you can do castor and camber adjustments.
When you undo them 3 nuts on the top the whole thing will move fully in (towards the engine)because the weight of the car forces them inwards --if the car is not jacked up.
Originally you should use some special tools what you can hook into some holes around the strut's top and then loosen them 3 nuts,so the tool holds the
suspension in position and by winding the tool you can adjust. With out the tool is a bit of pig...
You will need to jack the car up (before the wheel alignment), get the strut tops adjustment fully out (away from the engine) then tight the nuts.
When the car is on the wheel alignment ramp,loosen them nuts only that much to get them still hold the strut in position,but you can tap the top in with a hammer, carefully in small steps until the camber reading is ok. If you over tap it,then you have to start again,jack up..etc, gauges off,roll the car back and forth,gauges back on,tap it again.
That is the way to do it w/o special tool.

I hope it will help. Mine is perfect since I've done the idler arm (trapeze) adjustment as well.
Also good luck with garages,cause seems like nobody wants to do more than 2 turns on a track rod end for a wheel alignment.
And seems like lots of garages don't know what they doing,just turning that thing until thingy goes green on the screen..
Honestly ,good luck mate!
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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by Davy J » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:20 am

A very comprehensive techie instruction.

Well done GWD. :thumb:
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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by GWD » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:44 pm

... just tryin' to be helpful... :D
Probably it was a little bit overkill.
Only thing Newcastle Knight was asking is: " 0.15 right? " So the answer would have been "yah."
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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by Newcastle knight » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:17 pm

Well the lads at tyre spot couldnt adjust it anymore and its currently at -0.12 on both sides, which is better than what it was. I need to find one of those proper adjustment bar things for them to do it properly and go back. he then set the toe back to zero.

Last thing to get done is get the tyre balance checked, sometimes i get a vibration going between 60-70mph but its not all the time, its really annoying. i even asked about flat spots on the tyres but he said that would be apparant at all speeds.

ive recently fitted new wheel bearings too and i swear it wasnt like that before changing the bearings, ive checked and rechecked the big nut on the hub and thats fine on both sides, i turned it back a bit so the wheel spins freely etc. i noticed my shock bolts were a bit loose on both sides which was a bit weird so they are fully tight but that doesnt make any difference.

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Re: Tracking-Setting Data on a 3rd Gen.

Post by Newcastle knight » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:22 pm

GWD wrote: I hope it will help. Mine is perfect since I've done the idler arm (trapeze) adjustment as well.
Also good luck with garages,cause seems like nobody wants to do more than 2 turns on a track rod end for a wheel alignment.
And seems like lots of garages don't know what they doing,just turning that thing until thingy goes green on the screen..
Honestly ,good luck mate!
I would honestly love to do it myself like i do everything else on the car but i dont have a ramp or the laser alignment stuff obviously. The two lads at tyre spot seemed spot on and were trying to get it to what i told them and not just letting it go in the green. I think its because i painted the engine bay they couldnt get the strut tops to move as much as they wanted, they were whacking it with a rubber mallet while the other lad was pulling on it and it wouldnt only go so far and stop. how annoying.

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